"Cadenza mode" to insert notes into a tuplet

[shoogle]

Your idea

To create a tuplet in "cadenza mode", you would choose:

1. The total duration for the entire tuplet (e.g. half note)
2. A smaller duration for notes within the tuplet (e.g. eighth note)

You would then type a pitch (e.g. C) and MuseScore would create a 1-note tuplet with this pitch and your chosen durations:

Type another pitch and it would become a 2-note tuplet that occupies the same total duration:

Typing a third pitch would make it a 3-note tuplet:

Continue typing pitches until the tuplet contains the desired number of notes:

Now you could press the right arrow key (or Esc) to exit the tuplet, terminating it with the desired number of notes:

This mode could also be use to insert notes into an existing tuplet, or to remove notes from a tuplet, thereby changing the number of notes in the tuplet (i.e. its ratio) without changing its total duration.

Problem to be solved

1. You can start writing the tuplet without prior knowledge of how many notes it will eventually contain.
2. You can change your mind about how many notes it should contain without having to rewrite the entire tuplet.
3. You don't need to understand how "tuplet ratios" work.

This is useful when writing cadenzas or passages of music with lots of long tuplets, such as the examples in #24422.

Prior art

No response

Additional context

No response

Checklist

• This request follows the guidelines for reporting issues
• I have verified that this feature request has not been logged before, by searching the issue tracker for similar requests

[wizofaus]

I like the idea but I wouldn't necessarily think of "cadenza"-like passages (often written in cue-size notes) as "tuplets" at all, even if it may make sense to store them as such internally. Having the ability to easily enter extended cadenzas that simply extend the measure as needed, and are played back more or less like grace notes in terms of speed etc. would definitely be useful - not sure if it would make sense to combine into the same feature though (probably not). There's a link to #21220 in that #24422 issue but it's a very odd request the way it's currently written that doesn't seem to cover how cadenzas often behave (where some part of the measure may well be metrical and follow regular rules, but then also include non-metrical cadenza passages).

[SteveBlower]

The existing insert mode extends the duration of the measure as notes are added. That seems to cover what is needed to write a cadenza It is not clear why tuplets would be needed in that process.

[shoogle]

All the cadenzas that I can think of are best entered as tuplets. You can tell by looking at notes and rests for surrounding instruments (that don't have cadenzas) how the cadenza is supposed to fit into the meter.

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The Pirates of Penzance: Poor wond'ring one

The singer's half note is clearly full-size to match the half notes in the accompaniment. I would enter everything after it as one big tuplet with total duration of one quarter note so it occupies the same space as the quarter rest in the accompaniment.

It's worth mentioning that tuplets in MuseScore can contain notes of different duration, and you can use the Properties panel or the 'Beam properties' palette to break beams anywhere you want in the tuplet.

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The Mikado: Act I Finale

Here there's a full-size half note at the end of the measure. Everything before it could be entered as a single tuplet with half note duration. Alternatively, if the exact positioning relative to the rest in the accompaniment is considered important, the cadenza could be entered as two tuplets, each with quarter note duration, with the second tuplet starting where the rest is in the accompaniment.

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If there were no surrounding instruments, you could indeed grow the measure to fit all the notes without using tuplets, but I personally would still prefer to use a tuplet rather than introducing random extra beats here and there.

[shoogle]

BTW, "cadenza mode" is just my nickname for this feature. I'm not suggesting we actually call it that in the UI.

The request is simply to be able to change the number of notes in a tuplet (i.e. change the ratio) after the tuplet has been created. This feature would be useful regardless of what we call it. I wouldn't expand this issue to cover anything other than that ability.

[wizofaus]

Good examples - I'd agree internally storing them as tuplets makes sense, and in one sense logically they are (n notes in the time of m), but to me they're also quite different to how I might normally think of (and indeed perform) a regular metrical tuplet. I'm curious how the playback would work too - it seems you'd have to calculate how long you want the fermata to be and hope the cadenza notes spread themselves sensibly across that, though I suspect they wouldn't with the current logic for fermata playback (which is unfortunately quite problematic).

I'd also say cadenzas in solo piano music are less likely to require the use of tuplets from the point of view of lining up beats between staves - the only reason I might use tuplets then would be to give finer control over the speed of the playback. But e.g. if I initially enter in a passage like this (from Sibelius's Piano romance Op 24), I probably wouldn't use tuplets:

And instead rely on invisible tempo markings to get a reasonable playback. I'd say the current functionality is more or less adequate for doing so, though it could certainly be made more straightforward. So then the question is whether a "one-size-fits-all" cadenza entry mode could help for this sort of thing too.

[wizofaus]

(I did try entering that first measure in, it was definitely a bit trickier that you might hope, particularly having to recalculate the total number of beats the measure should have after using insert mode for the cue note passage, but otherwise OK. However...if I then realised after doing that I did in fact need something to occur metrically within the same measure, having a way to convert them to a "tuplet" style cadenza would be enormously helpful. And in fact on further consideration, instead of having a dedicated "extended tuplet entry mode", I'd be fine with just being able to enter the passage as regular notes, then select them and use a "convert to tuplet" command, where you specify the total duration the tuplet should span)

[shoogle]

"Convert to tuplet" is a good idea, though I think it should be a separate request to this one.

I'm curious how the playback would work too

For my examples, I would add invisible fermatas to all the notes and rests in the cadenza. This gives fine-grained control (via the Properities panel for each fermata) over exactly how long each note or rest in the cadenza should last relative to the others.

You could use invisible tempos but then you'd need to work out the absolute durations, which is painful inside a tuplet. Using invisible fermatas is much easier.

it seems you'd have to calculate how long you want the fermata to be and hope the cadenza notes spread themselves sensibly across that

I wouldn't touch the fermatas for other instruments. They should be subservient to the cadenza, like in a real performance.

if I initially enter in a passage like this (from Sibelius's Piano romance Op 24), I probably wouldn't use tuplets

Your image doesn't give enough context to judge how many "real" beats are in the measure, or whether there are two measures there or just one measure that's broken across two systems.

I looked it up on ISMLP (it's on page 43 of 50, numbered 138) and YouTube, and it's two measures of 3/4.

I would enter the first measure as real half-notes followed by three real 16th notes. That leaves one 16th duration left unfilled in the 3/4 measure, which I would turn into one big tuplet for all remaining notes in that measure. I would write the entire tuplet in the upper stave and then press Ctrl+Shift+Down to move specific notes to the lower staff as cross-staff notation.

I would write the second measure as a real double-dotted eight note followed by a real 32nd note. That uses up one quarter duration of the 3/4 measure. I would turn the remaining half duration into one big tuplet for all remaining notes. This would have to be done in both staves independently.

For playback, as before, I would add invisible fermatas to all notes in the cadenzas.

[DaddyLudwig]

I'll be at the cadenza for Beethoven's Piano Concerto no. 1 in C Op. 15 in a few days, and while I would definitely use tuplets for some of it, the 16th runs, I would notate as regular sixteenths and add invisible tempos as necessary.

Example of a place where I'd use both tuplets and regular sixteenths, I'd notate the beamed groups of 6 as sixteenth sextuplets and thus have a 2/4 bar followed by a 9/4 bar(internally anyway, they're part of the same bar musically). The following run in the third system I would notate as regular sixteenths in a 43/16 bar(31 sixteenths for the run + 3/4 after that) and then add an invisible tempo mark if necessary. This is near the end of Beethoven's third alternative cadenza (which I think is the most commonly played cadenza for the first movement of this concerto).

For another example of a cadenza where I didn't use tuplets, but instead just regular eighths, sixteenths, and 32nds + a couple tempo markings, here's Mozart's D minor fantasia, measures are 47/16 and 77/32 respectively.

[lgvr123]

"Convert to tuplet" is a good idea, though I think it should be a separate request to this one.

There is the Duration Editor plugin that can achieve this. However only working in MU3.6.2 and MU3.7

[lgvr123]

A general request about this feature request: why using tuplets for this ? Why not simply increase the bar duration ? Manually or with an adhoc (and hidden) times signature ? Tuplets are always so hard to manipulate in MuseScore.

[shoogle]

why using tuplets for this ? Why not simply increase the bar duration?

This has been asked and answered earlier in the thread. Please read the entire thread before posting.

Tuplets are always so hard to manipulate in MuseScore.

This issue seeks to address that. In fact, it was probably a mistake to call it "cadenza mode" because cadenzas are just one use-case. It's really about squashing more notes into a tuplet.

[lgvr123]

This issue seeks to address that. In fact, it was probably a mistake to call it "cadenza mode" because cadenzas are just one use-case. It's really about squashing more notes into a tuplet.

The hard points about tuplets are IMO not limited to entering the notes and I don't see these points addressed in the proposition:

• it is also copy/paste
• inserting notes within a tuplet
• management of the measure physical width: what if the tuplet/cadenza leads to a measure wider than the actual page ? The solution would be to break the measure, but for now, MuseScore don't support cross-measures tuplets.

My 2 firsts points may not be relevant for copy-writers using MuseScore, but are a must for composers who don't know in advance which notes they will have in their cadenza(*).

You can argue that inserting/removing notes between to existing notes is tedious today, even in non-tuplet phrases. This is exact, this is why I advocate for this Feature Request (Change the rhythm of notes and move automatically the next ones). This feature would, I think, solve and ease the purpose of this request(**).

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Your example examples are easily manageable without tuplets:

And if the measure width gets too wide :

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(*) As general remark, MU is more tailored for copy-writers than for composers, and, as a composer, I which this way of working to be taken into account too.

(**) You can test this approach, using MU3.6.2 or MU3.7 and the Duration Editor.

[shoogle]

This feature would solve one particular pain point with tuplets. I don't claim it would solve everything, or that there is nothing else worth solving (in a separate issue).

Your example examples are easily manageable without tuplets

Manageable is not the same as ideal. If you have the metronome enabled then you would hear the extra beats with your method, which may not be desirable. Also, the extra beats would be exported to MIDI, MusicXML, Braille, and other formats, which may not support hidden rests, or may not be handled gracefully by other software.

But more importantly, it's clear from the examples that tuplets capture what the composer (or at least the engraver) intended, whereas extra beats do not. Even if the hidden beats method looks acceptable, semantically, it's not there.

[DaddyLudwig]

The extra beats method that you're talking about @lgvr123 works best when it's a solo cadenza where nobody else is playing either because the piece is written for solo to begin with (My Mozart fantasia example for instance) or because it's a soloist cadenza in a concerto (see my Beethoven concerto example where I used both extra beats in all the multi-system bars and tuplets in some places like where the sixteenths were in groups of 6 because that's what was required to fit everything in there). That said, I have also used the extra beats method for cadenzas within a larger ensemble. Like in these 2 Beethoven cadenzas from a piano trio and a symphony:

Piano Trio no. 3 in C minor Movement 1:

Those notes that look like grace notes aren't actually grace notes, they are cue size notes on the extra beats. 5/4 for the first cadenza bar, 4/4 for the second cadenza bar.

Symphony no. 5 in C minor Movement 1:

9/4 bar for the oboe cadenza, bunch of hidden rests for the other orchestral parts. Again, cue size notes. That Adagio marking by the way is 60 BPM.

[lgvr123]

@shoogle How would you address these tuplets limitations in your FR ?

• copy/paste of cadneza/tuplets elements
• inserting notes within a cadenza/tuplet
• management of the measure physical width: what if the tuplet/cadenza leads to a measure wider than the actual page ? The solution would be to break the measure, but for now, MuseScore don't support cross-measures tuplets.

Maybe should it be described in the FR description.

[shoogle]

@lgvr123, this feature request is for inserting notes into a tuplet. The other things you mention are separate features so I would not seek to address them in this feature request. Adding more things to this request makes it less likely to get implemented rather than more.

Having said that, the solution to those problems is obvious: MuseScore should simply allow you to paste tuplets anywhere and break measures anywhere. That's all there is to it, at least from the user's perspective. The difficulty is in implementing that in the code.

[lgvr123]

I understand. Maybe should the feature request be reworded to "append notes as tuplets"

[lgvr123]

See also the 2 related Feature Requests that would ease working on cadenza if implemented as tuplets:
"Necessary improvements on the UI of tuplets" #18980 , " Tuplet Mode" #25758