Request To Add Piano Roll Window For Selected Channel

[starblightstudios]

Post by @i_am_kenokeno, you can find me on various platforms or contact me on Discord.

Today I come suggesting a Piano Roll window for Furnace (and an extended pattern length limit!) but why?

Hiyo! I am a HUGE fan of Furnace, but I really struggle with trackers... but I can work with them if I try hard enough. There are a few reasons for having trouble with them, it is sometimes difficult for me to find the appropriate timing for notes and where I want them to go, but highlights help with this. Another reason is due to a lack of control of my music at a slow tracking speed, which speaks for itself, but why not use a faster speed instead then? The reason why is faster tracking speeds make my project visually less accessible (for me at least) which has me trading off the amount of notes I can see at a time for more control over how notes sound. Visual clutter can also be an issue at slower tracker speeds aswell, if I manually create an arpeggio and mess up with note placements somewhere, I'll have a harder time trying to figure out which note is the culprit due to all of them being only a letter and number, which makes it harder to spot mistakes.

This culmination of issues compels me to suggest an alternative view for whatever selected channel. A simple piano roll that shows each individual tick when zoomed in, and lets you zoom out for a better look at the current pattern. For maximum control you'd want a tracking speed of one so you have access to every tick, but with a piano roll a pattern length limit of 256 and a speed of one, the size of patterns becomes not very much to work with at all, so I also suggest an extended limit for the pattern length.

I'm using Famistudio as an example, as it is a simple chiptune program with a piano roll that allows you to easily access every frame and gives you a good idea of where your notes should be placed and which notes are which.

In a scenario where this feature was implemented into Furnace, notes would be placed on any tick the user pleases. The note, octave, and instrument value would be displayed on the note. Volume would be indicated by the opacity of the note as well as a value being displayed if zoomed in enough. You can click on an end of a note to drag it. The tick where a note stops a stop note would automatically be placed in tracker view. Release notes could be indicated with "note tails" as shown below.

Effects in a tick could be indicated with the first effect value ("00" - any "xy" would be truncated.) being displayed on a tick if zoomed in enough. Right click on a tick to edit the effects.

I'm unsure how you'd enter effect information, you could possibly right click on notes to open up a small dialogue box overtop the note (or below depending on how high up the note is to the edge of the window) that allows you to enter the necessary information just like how you'd edit a note in the tracker view.

You could shift click on notes to easily delete them.

How would the patterns display then? I suggest that the highlights determine that. The first highlight drawing a line every set amount of ticks to indicate a note, then the second highlight drawing a thicker line to indicate the end of a bar/measure just like Famistudio.

Nothing else about the program would change, no BPM settings would need to be implemented and nothing else of that sort. The window would have to opened though "Window -> Song -> Piano Roll" and would display the currently selected channel's notes. This feature would be a huge help to someone like me, who is more comfortable working in a piano roll. At the very least being able to zoom in and out in the Tracker View, having the song appear as if it is running at 6 speed and then allowing me to zoom in with ALT+Scroll to see the song actually running at 1 speed would be a godsend.

I look forward to seeing what people think of this suggestion, or the alternative I provided to the piano roll.

[IceDragonDee]

Many people have asked for this, and I'm sure you have the best intentions, but I believe the answer is no. Please consult the FAQ if my answer is not clear enough

[IceDragonDee]

it was already discussed at length. I don't think other people really want to fo it again

[starblightstudios]

Was any alternatives to a piano roll discussed? Anything to ultimately fix the issue of trading control for visibility and accessibility?
I don't want to talk about just a piano roll, I want a solution, whether it be a piano roll or not.

-Keno

[IceDragonDee]

I don't think there is an alternative solution. If there was, you'd be able to find it in other software, but frankly, I don't think that we need to reinvent the wheel for a single user.

You have three options, I think; learn how to understand what a tracker does and how it works, learn how to program and take the functionality of Furnace, sans tracker interface and create a plugin for use in DAWs or find another software entirely that does what you want.

[starblightstudios]

You have three options, I think; learn how to understand what a tracker does and how it works, learn how to program and take the functionality of Furnace, sans tracker interface and create a plugin for use in DAWs or find another software entirely that does what you want.

It's safe to assume I know how to use Furnace if I am making such specific critiques. I've made music with the software before. My issue comes with the fact that if I want more precise control over my notes I'll have to work in Speed 1, which means I have less notes on screen making it difficult of keeping track where I am in the song and where notes should be placed, or I have to have an absurd amount of instruments... Neither are preferable.

Besides, I'm not asking for anybody to "reinvent the wheel." I just don't want to have to trade off control over how my music sounds for visibility and accessibility. That's why I suggested a piano roll interface in the first place... One that allows you to place effects frame by frame while being able to easily see how and where your notes are placed. I am certain there is another solution, if not a piano roll.

-Keno

[IceDragonDee]

Frankly, the issue you're trying to solve... isn't really an issue. If you need to rely on speed 1 for your music, you might need to re-evaluate how you're making it in the first place.you can make things that sound indistinguishable from other forms of music creation at other, slower speeds. you call for accessibility, but I know of disabled, even blind people, who make their way around trackers, (I believe that screen reader support is being worked on for Furnace), so the problems you are facing may be on just you.

[Soulchip]

When you struggle with trackers the best thing to do is keep using them until you don't struggle anymore. Asking for a TRACKER to change and NOT BE A TRACKER is not going to work. This is a tracker... it has a tracker interface. Some people asked for this already but with a DAW view... the answer is always the same: no.

This is like asking photoshop to change the interface because you struggle with it... or ask Cubase to create a tracker interface because you struggle with piano rolls... it's not going to happen.

[starblightstudios]

I could continue to use Furnace until I struggle less, but I'll still have to trade off accessibility of my projects for control. There are still issues with the program. Do the bare minimum and discuss potential alternatives to my suggestion because you're right, it is a big ask, but you are adding nothing to the conversation and I have little tolerance for people who respond like this. At the end of the day I want the software to be more accessible, whether it be by adding a piano roll or not. There must be a solution, it just needs to be found.

-Keno

[tildearrow]

Don't make chaos or cause drama.

There can be a solution. It just needs to be coded in.

[EG244]

Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of a tracker?

[Soulchip]

Yes, but once a year, someone new to trackers comes along who hasn't taken the time to learn how to use them properly. They often request features like a piano roll or a DAW-style interface, and while we understand the intent, the answer remains consistently no.

[starblightstudios]

Yes, but once a year, someone new to trackers comes along who hasn't taken the time to learn how to use them properly. They often request features like a piano roll or a DAW-style interface, and while we understand the intent, the answer remains consistently no.

Then suggest an alternative 🙃
-Keno

[starblightstudios]

Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of a tracker?

I find this question very amusing because... well let me ask you this:
"If FL Studio was to add a tracker-like timeline, wouldn't that defeat the purpose of being a DAW?" ... No, I don't think so. Honestly, I find it to be a very silly question. FL Studio having an optional note sequencer styled like a tracker's wouldn't make it any less of a DAW, just how if Furnace was to have an optional note sequencer very much presented like a piano roll wouldn't make it any less of a tracker.

Besides, if you were to really read into my suggestion and the ideas said, it could be argued that I am suggesting a glorified horizontal timeline, and nothing much more. An alternative to seeing what notes I placed, and how.

I'm not wanting Furnace to stop being a tracker, I just am putting forth a suggestion to make it a bit easier to use. If the idea of a horizontal note sequencer is still out of the question or if you're just not convinced, that's fine. Ultimately my main issue with Furnace is that I prefer to work in slower speeds as it is easier for me to analyze my music and how my notes are placed, but I sacrifice being able to tinker with my music frame by frame. I sacrifice being able to input precise effects, note releases, note stops, or even advanced arpeggios... And having to work in a faster speed where I have less notes on screen is less desirable, and I've seen others complain about the exact same issue. I have other struggles that come with using Furnace, but this one is my main priority. I'd like to see it solved one day whether it be by a piano roll that allows me to edit my music frame by frame no matter the tick speed I work at or not.

At the end of the day, I'd rather Furnace be easier to use so I can have it be my go-to music program over something like Famistudio or Reaper.

-Keno

[Eknous-P]

I sacrifice being able to input precise effects, note releases, note stops, or even advanced arpeggios...

see ECxx, EDxx, or you can do macro sequences

And having to work in a faster speed where I have less notes on screen is less desirable

this may not help much but you can make the pattern window larger or use a smaller font for the pattern

also, is your suggested piano roll window only for viewing?

[starblightstudios]

see ECxx, EDxx

Oh! I was unaware that these exist, this may help a bit! As for macro sequences, yes, I could... but eventually I'd have an absurd amount of instruments dedicated to specific macros, effects, and arpeggios on a song-by-song basis... I tend to work in the same project file but I also use subsongs for my different projects... so it can eventually get very overwhelming... I suppose it may be a necessary evil.

this may not help much but you can make the pattern window larger or use a smaller font for the pattern

I was actually made aware of this by the NES Dev Discord server, and it does help a bit, if I ever experiment with faster speeds this will help out a smidge.

also, is your suggested piano roll window only for viewing?

The whole purpose of the suggestion was to be able to see how the notes were placed on a piano roll and to allow the user to input data "frame by frame" no matter the tick speed... but even having it exclusively for viewing would be wonderful! It would allow me to spot mistakes in my note placement especially in areas of my music where notes are extremely packed together, making it difficult to find the culprit note... even just for visuals it would be a huge help!

-Keno